A conversation with Stanley Johnson
Stanley Johnson is a writer, journalist, explorer, and former politician. Father of former British Prime Minister Boris Johnson, he is a familiar face to a generation of reality TV viewers as the oldest contestant to have ever participated in ITV’s I’m A Celebrity… Get Me Out of Here! He also starred in the BBC series The Real Marigold Hotel, where he, along with other celebrity pensioners, explored the possibility of retiring in India.
In 1961, as a student, Stanley embarked on an adventurous journey from Oxford to India and Afghanistan by motorbike, tracing the path of Marco Polo. Fifty-nine years later in 2023, he and his son Max retraced this undergraduate journey, which has been documented in a film and the book In the Footsteps of Marco Polo. The European spoke to him about his journey, and also to get his take on the current political landscape.
Let me take you back to 1961 when you had quite an adventure. Most students during the summer are probably focused on getting a job to save some money for the next term. So, what made you want to explore India and Afghanistan, parts of the world that weren’t on many young people’s radar. Did you have a particular interest in demographics?
Stanley Johnson: At that stage, I didn’t have a particular interest in demography, that came later in my Oxford career, around 1962 or 1963. The Oxford system allowed us four clear months to pursue our interests. There was a notice in college, which I mentioned in my book, reminding gentlemen to study during the long vacation, but no one paid much attention to that!
It was a good moment for a change because I had spent five terms doing Classical Moderations, which involved intensive study. After that, I switched to English and completed my degree in that field. Winning the University Prize for Poetry influenced this decision. Looking back, I had a wonderful Oxford career, though I don’t think I worked particularly hard!
It’s all part of the experience. But at that age, being young and able to travel the world on a motorbike is a real highlight. It suggests that maybe the world was a more carefree place back then.
SJ: That’s an interesting point. I had a gap year because I left school at the end of 1958 and didn’t start at Oxford until October 1959. During those 10 months, I travelled through Europe, Turkey, and even went to Brazil.
During my trip to Brazil, I also travelled through Peru and ended up in the heart of the Amazon by May or June 1959, where President Juscelino Kubitschek was building Brasília. I was there without any particular papers, just wanting to experience it.
So, what happened during your gap year set you up for the 1961 Silk Road trip.
SJ: Exactly. During that gap year, I saw a lot of Europe in the traditional way – France, Italy, Greece. I went to Turkey because I have Turkish ancestors. One of my grandfathers was a senior official in the last Sultan’s government. When I came to Brazil, I travelled extensively through the country and up to Machu Picchu in Peru. It wasn’t until I joined the World Bank in 1966 that I fully realised the importance of development and raising living standards. I was one of about 10 people selected for the Young Professional Programme, and I’m still friends with some of them today.
So, from 1961 to 2023, and this time you’re travelling with your son Max. What were his expectations for this journey? Were they different from yours when you revisited the route?
SJ: I think his expectations were probably more sophisticated than mine. He had spent many years in Asia. Max joined me for the second part of this trip. In 1961, I only made it to the Chinese border with Afghanistan. This time, we started right where I left off, in the far west of Xinjiang, and continued from there. Max’s expectations were to join me on this adventure, and we were extremely fortunate to have funding from supporters who believed in our journey, notably GEDU-Global Education’s English Path network (englishpath.com).
In 1961, the world was quite different from today and over the decades, you must have witnessed a lot of changes. Do you believe the historical significance of Marco Polo and the route endures?
SJ:There is a strong sense in China of Marco Polo’s importance and the significance of his achievements, particularly in building bridges between cultures. This appreciation is evident in physical landmarks like the famous Marco Polo Bridge in Beijing and the large statues of Marco Polo we encountered.
So the spirit of the trail is being revived in the 21st century by the Chinese. Let’s discuss the documentary. It’s not only informative but also very enjoyable, making you feel like you’re part of the journey. Are there any elements in the book that don’t appear in the documentary, or vice versa, or does the documentary cover everything?
SJ: In my book, I documented everything I saw, benefiting from knowing what was included in the film. This allowed me to ensure the book accurately reflects our journey and experiences. We followed Marco Polo’s route closely, guided by his detailed place names, which scholars have verified over time.
For example, his description of the Summer Palace in Xanadu aligns with contemporary literature and archaeological findings. This cross-verification was fascinating and confirmed the accuracy of his observations. I don’t believe we left anything out, as the book covers our entire route and experiences comprehensively.
So, whether we watch the documentary or read the book, everything you experienced and enjoyed is shared with us, which is fantastic. Now, shifting gears from your explorations to your diverse career, you’ve had an impressive journey, including roles as an MP and a member of the European Parliament. How do you assess the current political landscape?
SJ: We’re on a knife edge in terms of war and peace, with several global hotspots that could escalate from minor conflicts to major wars. The Middle East and the Ukraine-Russia conflict are particularly concerning, along with other potential flashpoints worldwide.
Environmentally, we’re also in a precarious situation. This summer in Greece, for example, saw unprecedented heat, with temperatures consistently reaching 40°C. Climate change and biodiversity loss are critical issues, exacerbated by the growing human population and increased demand for resources, which threaten wildlife and natural habitats.
Given the numerous pressing issues, what should be the UK’s priority? We face myriad geopolitical and environmental concerns, and these issues often overlap, such as food security being tied to geopolitics. Is it possible to prioritise these challenges, or must we address them simultaneously? What is the best approach?
SJ: Given my extensive experience with European affairs, I believe the UK must prioritise collaboration with the EU, especially after Brexit. The EU played a crucial role in the Paris Agreement of 2015, and I’m concerned that we’re losing the European dimension in our policies. Europe has been instrumental in addressing climate change, biodiversity, and trade, ensuring that goods are environmentally sustainable.
This is particularly important as the role of the United States in these global issues remains uncertain. We saw a worrying trend when Donald Trump attempted to withdraw the US from the climate change convention. Although it didn’t happen, there’s a risk it could occur in the future, which would have significant implications for international cooperation on these critical issues.
You’ve praised the European Union for its leadership on environmental issues, setting an example for others to follow. Reflecting on the Brexit referendum, you supported the UK remaining in the EU. Do you still believe that was the right stance?
SJ: Yes, it’s crucial for the UK to rebuild bridges with Europe in a precise manner. It’s encouraging to hear the Prime Minister, Keir Starmer, talk about strengthening relationships. Specifically, I believe the UK should rejoin the European Environment Agency, which I helped establish in the early 1990s. Non-EU members like Turkey and Switzerland are part of it, and the UK should be too, to avoid gaps in environmental statistics that inform policy. Additionally, rejoining programmes like Horizon and Erasmus is vital. Without these connections, we risk inadequate compensation for not being in the EU.
My final question concerns Europe and the US. Can Europe survive a second Trump administration? Some commentators suggest a Trump victory might embolden disruptors within the EU, like Viktor Orban of Hungary.
SJ: Absolutely, I believe Europe can and will survive. Trump highlighted that Europe wasn’t meeting its NATO defence commitments, and he wasn’t wrong. His re-election might push Europe to fulfill its defence obligations, especially regarding Ukraine, where the US currently bears much of the burden.
While disruptors exist, the majority in the European Parliament remains centred, managing to form a majority. Disruptors like Orban remain on the fringes. Look at the French election: Marine Le Pen was excluded from office after the centre-right, centre-left, and centre came together in the second round. The centre still holds strong, and I believe it will continue to do so.
Stanley Johnson was speaking to Juliette Foster
Further information
‘In the Footsteps of Marco Polo’ can be purchased from Telenksy International Editions.
Visit telenskyeditions.co.uk to find out more.
